PHIL GOFF
Minister of Foreign Affairs
Interviewed by SIMON DALLOW
This transcript is copyright to Front Page Ltd but may be used provided acknowledgement is given to Agenda and TVOne.
This is a rush transcript and may contain errors. It should be checked against a tape of the programme to ensure complete accuracy.
PART 1
SIMON
US President George Bush has called this Russian tragedy yet another length to which terrorist will go to threaten the civilised world, while British Prime Minister Tony Blair said it's hard to express my revulsion at the inhumanity of terrorists prepared to put children and their parents through such suffering.
Minister of Foreign Affairs Phil Goff is with us now, Mr Goff what's you’re immediate reaction to this.
PHIL GOFF
Well I think we've just seen in the television the human face of the tragedy that has occurred there, it is impossible to understand how any human being can use a child as a pawn in a political dispute. We know that more than 150 have been killed many of those will be children, more than 600 wounded, this is the face of terrorism. Whatever the cause that people in Chechnya might have justifies the arbitrary killing of people let alone children.
SIMON
Is this Russia's equivalent of 9/11?
PHIL GOFF
I think it is, Russia has of course suffered a series to terrorist attacks over time going back to 1995 where more than 100, 150 people have been killed in 95 and 2002, but this very clearly is the most tragic the most dramatic, I think in particular because children are involved in it.
SIMON
It's a grim reminder too that the war on terror is not just a war against Al Qaeda but quite chillingly ten Arabs were involved in this, Arab mercenaries, what do you make of that?
PHIL GOFF
Well it would tend to back up the claims that President Putin has been making that this is not simply a group of Chechnyan people concerned about the condition of their people seeking their independence but it does have linkages with international terrorism. We know that the events of the Russian occupation of Afghanistan and the fighting that occurred there brought together terrorist groups from different parts of the world, that acted as a catalyst and those groups now have linkages as far afield as the Philippines, Indonesia with Jemar Islamia as well of course in Chechnya and elsewhere.
SIMON
President Bush was criticised last week for saying you can't win a war on terror was he right?
PHIL GOFF
Well I think you can win a war on terror but you can't win it simply by suppression you also have to address the causes of that terrorism. In the case of Chechnya those causes go back a very long time including the forced removal of the people from Chechnya to Siberia where literally tens of thousands of people died, so ultimately for a sustainable peace you have to address those political causes, that is not to say that you in any way bow to the demands of terrorists in an event like this you simply can't.
SIMON
We will be back in a moment with more from Mr Goff on nuclear politics and rogue states.
PART 2
SIMON
I'm joined again by Foreign Affairs Minister Phil Goff. Iran's been steadily building nuclear capability supposedly for energy needs, but the US accuses it of covertly building a weapons programme. What did your meeting with Foreign Minister Karazi say?
PHIL GOFF
Well we focused quite a lot on the nuclear issue because New Zealand at the moment as you’re probably aware is a member of the Board of Governors of the International Atomic Energy Agency, so we do have a direct say, we've been on that, we're just about to complete a two year term. We've expressed our concern to the Iranians about various questions that have remained unanswered, traces of uranium enriched to a far higher level than would be necessary for the use in a nuclear energy plant. We've asked the Iranians to co-operate with us and to ratify the additional protocol that will allow regular inspections. We've stressed the importance of an open and transparent process to give the world confidence that this programme is about peaceful use of nuclear energy and not a covert programme to develop nuclear weapons, however you know the context in their region, you know that India and Pakistan are now nuclear armed, we know that while it doesn’t acknowledge it that Israel is most certainly nuclear armed and we don’t draw a line between whether it's desirable that one country is and one country isn't, we make the clear point that there should be no nuclear proliferation and those that have nuclear weapons should be destroying their stock.
SIMON
You mentioned we now have a seat on the Board of Governors of the IAEA the International Atomic Energy Agency, how consistent was Mr Karazi with the IAEA report that came out this week?
PHIL GOFF
Well we said that we expected them to fall into line with what the expectations of the IAEA were, he was adamant that they are not developing a nuclear weapons programme, there is to be fair, only limited evidence of things that cannot be explained and they say well this is contaminated equipment we got in centrifuges from other countries, but we need to stress we can't control what Iran does but we need to stress to it the importance of not becoming nuclear armed and we need to stress to it that in doing that we are consistent, we are not singling Iran out, we make the same demands on India, on Pakistan, on Israel and indeed all of the nuclear weapon states.
SIMON
Well the US clearly doesn’t trust Iran how divided is the IAEA Board?
PHIL GOFF
Well there are different schools of thought on that board, New Zealand tends to line up with the European Union countries as you are aware probably the European Union three Germany France and Great Britain have been negotiating with Iran to try to ensure that instead of it enriching its own fuel and reprocessing its own fuel it buys its fuel in, that would be an absolute guarantee that the programme was simply for nuclear purposes rather than for the later development of nuclear weapons, Iran on the other hand says no we've had sanctions against us, we need to be self sufficient, we need to reprocess our own fuel. So there is a difference of opinion there, we are working to persuade Iran to fall into line with the IAEA requests and expectations.
SIMON
The nuclear enrichment programme that you refer to of course Iran has recently embarked on a programme in which it could convert potentially according to one western nuclear expert enough to build five atomic bombs, five nuclear weapons.
PHIL GOFF
Well I don’t think Iran has that capacity at the moment that capacity would be some years down the track, but clearly we don’t want it to start to go down the track so that that could be possible. On the other hand we are in no position to demand that Iran not develop its own nuclear energy programme, we are in the position to state strongly our expectations that they will do it in an open and transparent way to give the international community confidence that this is indeed about a peaceful development of nuclear energy and not about nuclear weapons.
SIMON
The US of course wants Iran referred from the IAEA to the Security Council, how likely is it they’ll get their way?
PHIL GOFF
Well that is one of the sanctions that can be held against Iran if it does not meet the expectations of the Board of Governors, however once you have done that what next, either they can thumb their nose at the IAEA, they can withdraw from it and you have no ability to deal with them except by direct attack and that has huge implications for safety security stability in the region, nobody wants to see that happen. So we're working by persuasion. There is I guess the tough cop soft cop line, the European Union, New Zealand and others trying to work by persuasion the United States saying fine but if this doesn’t happen we have sanctions behind it.
SIMON
Will it go to the Security Council?
PHIL GOFF
It could well go to the Security Council if clear answers to the questions by the IAEA aren’t forthcoming.
SIMON
Of course Iran always has the option of opting out of the IAEA doesn’t it?
PHIL GOFF
It has that option and of course North Korea has already done that and at the moment we're back around the negotiating table with North Korea and the group of six that are negotiating with it to step back from its nuclear weapons programme.
SIMON
Well you of course met recently with South Korea's Foreign Minister, what was discussed?
PHIL GOFF
Well the total focus of the Republic of Korea is of course on it's relationship with its northern neighbours and the concern that it has, the concern that the world has about nuclearisation of the Korean peninsula. You have two countries that have been at war in the past, there is an armistice there is not formal peace, you have the last remaining Stalinist regime in the world in North Korea, you have a regime that could well behave in an irrational way. It is a concern directly to us.
SIMON
So they want you to put pressure on North Korea?
PHIL GOFF
Yes they're very happy indeed with what New Zealand has been doing. We have accredited our ambassador from Seoul also to Pyong Yang, he has made several visits up there, he has reinforced the points about the need to step back from the nuclear weapons programme, we have withheld the funding that we were providing for heavy oil shipments to North Korea under the Korean Energy Development Organisation until such time as North Korea meets the demands that have been made on it and comes back under the Non Proliferation Treaty. We have said to North Korea that we understand the plight of their people, this is a country in which millions of people are suffering from malnutrition, we are helping with the world food programme, we are helping with UNICEF, we are saying that we could do much more but an obstacle remains, the fact that North Korea is diverting its own resources into a nuclear weapons, they must step back from that if they're to get wider economical operation from the International Community.
SIMON
How dangerous do you think North Korea is, they’ve made pretty intemperate comments recently.
PHIL GOFF
They enter into the game of brinkmanship and they go right up to the line and there is always a danger when you play that game that one side or the other will go over the line. I think the United States and the discussions that I've had with Colin Powell have been very restrained in the actions, they’ve emphasised the need to resolve this by dialogue not by force, I think that that is the right track to follow and of course China is playing a crucial role in this in hosting the six party talks that are ongoing.
SIMON
South Korea of course wants you to put this pressure on North Korea to reduce the nuclear proliferation, but aren’t they being a bit disingenuous now we know that their own scientists have used lasers to enrich nuclear fuel, a process that has no credible civilian use?
PHIL GOFF
Well we don’t have particular concerns that South Korea is developing a nuclear weapons programme, we've had a close relationship with South Korea for a very long time, I don’t have credible evidence that that is what they're intending to do, but the danger is of course that if North Korea were to develop nuclear weapons other countries in the region including South Korea perhaps Japan, Japan has always stood against the development of nuclear weapons, but if they felt threatened then there would be pressure for them to consider moving in that direction, that would be the last thing that the International Community needs in terms of peace and stability in the region.
SIMON
We'll have more from Mr Goff in just a moment as we look closer to home and examine New Zealand's role in the Pacific.
PART 3
SIMON
Closer to home than we just did, the King of Tonga recently sacked three senior Cabinet Ministers, what do you make of that?
PHIL GOFF
Well the King has the power to appoint his own executive, we're not talking about a country that has a Westminster style democratic system, the three that were sacked may have been sacked because of their opposition to an internal policy regarding a monopoly on airlines within Tonga, that suggestion has been made.
SIMON
This is where the King's son has an interest in the airline.
PHIL GOFF
The King's son has a monopoly on an internal airline within Tonga, I think quite clearly there is a problem when you have a form of government where you don’t have full democratic accountability and the people that exercise political power also have a controlling institution in economic affairs within the country.
SIMON
You said those three senior ministers may have been sacked for that reason, do you have any more definitive information?
PHIL GOFF
Well the one thing that the three ministers have in common was that they sat on a Cabinet sub committee dealing with the airlines so equally the Solicitor General was sacked because a ruling was made that apparently did not find favour, or at least that suggestion has been made. We can't involve ourselves in the internal affairs of Tonga, as soon as I stand on my soap box and say that Tonga should do this that and the other the issue doesn’t become democracy in Tonga it becomes the right of Tonga as a small country, and independent country, to resist incursions on its sovereignty by its bullying neighbour, so I'm determined that won't happen.
SIMON
Obviously that impacts on the region though, how concerned are you by the potential suppression of democracy, how politically stable is Tonga?
PHIL GOFF
Well what we say, well it's probably quite stable politically it's quite a conservative society and there is a great deal of respect for the King who's been in authority for a very long time, our position to Tonga is always to encourage it to move towards the development of democratic institutions where governance is accountable, where people have the right to change governments and have full freedom of expression.
SIMON
Yet it seems to be going the other way.
PHIL GOFF
I think the argument that I would make with Tonga is to look at its progress in the last ten years, look at the progress of a country with which it would normally compare itself, Samoa, see what the difference is and try to understand where those differences have come from.
SIMON
Under what sort of conditions would New Zealand consider intervention in a Pacific state?
PHIL GOFF
Well normally what would have to happen is that there would need to be an invitation, there would need to be an agreement in the Pacific Forum countries, and we worked very hard to ensure that before any intervention took place in the Solomon Islands there was both a consensus in the Forum that that should happen and there was a clear and unequivocal invitation from the Solomon Islands government that it should.
SIMON
Many would say that took too long.
PHIL GOFF
Well I don’t think so, it's easy to rush in and when you rush in Iraq is probably a very good example of how you get unintended consequences, we were measured in the way that we worked with our Pacific neighbours to get an intervention that was necessary in the Solomon Islands when that country was on the verge of anarchy and on becoming a failed state, that intervention to date has worked very successfully, not one shot has been fired, law and order and stability and economic progress have been achieved, we're still only half way there, that has to be sustainable in terms of good governance so that when the regional assistance mission withdraws from the Solomon Islands the progress that the Solomon Islands has made in the last year can continue.
SIMON
In the Pacific to what extent do we act in concert with Australia, how mutual is our outlook?
PHIL GOFF
Well we work very closely with Australia because we are the two countries that probably have the greatest level of economic resources in the region, but our position is of course not identical to Australia, we are both independent and sovereign countries, from time to time we have a differing outlook, but when you look at Bougainville, when you look at East Timor, when you look at the Solomons you see there's a great deal to be gained when New Zealand Australia and the Pacific Forum countries are working together towards a common and agreed end.
SIMON
Let's look for a parallel to the situation that’s happened overnight in Russia, what risks does the Pacific face of potential terrorist actions of that nature?
PHIL GOFF
Well I think terrorism can hit anywhere at any time in any place in the world and our worry is not that we have groups within the Pacific that have those links with international terrorism but that we do have states that are in economic difficulty that have social difficulties where there is poor governance, and where there is a weak link in the chain that’s where the terrorist may focus their attention, it's therefore important that we work with our Pacific neighbours to ensure that there is no possibility that terrorists can infiltrate or use a country in the Pacific as a base, that hasn’t happened yet, it's not likely to happen in the immediate future, we want to make sure that it can never happen.
SIMON
Who provides the lead on the overall security scenario on the Pacific?
PHIL GOFF
Oh I think it has to be done jointly and in agreement, that’s why we have the Pacific Island Forum, even the smallest countries have got to have the right to have a say and to have ownership over solutions, otherwise those solutions if they're seen as Australian New Zealand from the South Pacific imposing its will simply won't work, won't achieve the ends that we hope to achieve.
SIMON
We've seen the situation in Russia overnight with hostages, we've had French journalists hostage in Iraq, what would the government's approach be if New Zealanders were caught up in a similar sort of situation?
PHIL GOFF
In terms of a hostage situation? It's a grim situation to be in and it's a nightmare I think that every government has that it will wake up in the morning to find that its citizens have been taken hostage and demands have been made. We would of course try to do everything in our power to ensure the safety of our citizens in that event, what we have said however is that you cannot simply bow to the demands of terrorist groups and hope that way to protect your citizens because when you bow to those demands it simply means that more demands will be made, more hostages will be taken, that was the lesson that we learnt in the 60s and the 70s from the hijacking of aircraft.
SIMON
What action will the government be taking, what will you be doing immediately now with regard to the Russian situation?
PHIL GOFF
Well the first thing that I've done is to send a letter of sympathy and concern to my counterpart the Russian Foreign Minister, that letter indicates our unequivocal condemnation of terrorist actions, it also indicates however that in resolving any terrorist situation ultimately we need to address the causes of that situation and not simply suppress the symptoms.
SIMON
How much does the crisis there add credibility to Bush's war on terror?
PHIL GOFF
Well I think it's credible world wide that international terrorism is now at the new level of threat, we saw that on 9/11, we saw the way that terrorists could come together in a very sophisticated and co-ordinated way and kill literally thousands of people, we also know that there is a threat that potentially if terrorists got their hands on weapons of mass destruction we wouldn’t be talking about thousands of deaths, we could be talking about tens of thousands if not millions of deaths, that situation has to be avoided, but to avoid that we believe the best path to follow is a multi lateral path to get countries working together, as indeed the United States did after 9/11 on the campaign against terrorism and against the Taliban an Al Qaeda in Afghanistan, we have far greater concerns that if unilateral action is taken and countries and whole regions are left behind then the outcome will not be as successful as we want it to be.
SIMON
Minister of Foreign Affairs Phil Goff thank you for giving your time to Agenda today.
Thank you Simon.
Copyright to Front Page Ltd but may be used PROVIDED attribution is made to TVOne and Agenda
