AGENDA
GEORGE BIZOS
International Human Rights Lawyer
Interviewed by SIMON DALLOW
PART 1
SIMON
Mr Bizos thanks for joining us. A week ago you were largely unknown in New Zealand and you’re possibly one of the most celebrated figures in the country now. How many families of the Kiwi soldiers have you managed to catch up with?
MR BIZOS
I have met four and have spoken to the other three relatives. Unfortunately every one of the seven has passed away which is sad, perhaps I should have started the search earlier.
SIMON
But nice nevertheless to have made contact. What's it meant to you to have met the families of those Kiwi soldiers.
MR BIZOS
In a way it fills a gap in my life, people say that we saved the New Zealanders but it was a reciprocal part in many ways. As a result of them coming to our village we were liberated my father and I and it changed my life, had they not come I might have been a small olive farmer and I'm grateful that they were the cause of this fundamental change to my life.
SIMON
So it changed your life in the way that it panned out. How did the experience shape your outlook on life?
MR BIZOS
Well you know my father was a democrat to the core, one of the reasons why he left and why he helped the New Zealanders was to continue the struggle on Crete without knowing that Crete was busy falling and when in 1948 the Nationalists came into power who applauded Nazi victory still in the war was insult not only to me but to the vast number of students who had either interrupted or not commenced their studies in order to fight in the war and it radicalised many of us from 1948 onwards.
SIMON You were a young man in 1948 when they came to power when they introduced apartheid, how socially wrenching and divisive was the lead up to that introduction?
MR BIZOS
Well you know all of a sudden to be in a community at the university of people who were prepared to sacrifice their lives for freedom, and some of them had served in the German prisoners of war camps and to have these people with a racist policy objecting to this small number of black students at the university and threatening to close the university down if they were not removed, those were very traumatic times.
SIMON
And of course you've had a distinguished career as a human rights advocate in the years that have followed most notably defending Nelson Mandela in the early 60s Rivonia Treason Trial. How significant was that trial to the anti apartheid movement as a catalyst for what was to come later?
MR BIZOS
Well you know the courtroom is the last forum in which the oppressed have a voice which can be heard and the forthright manner in which Nelson Mandela made his 'I'm prepared to die' speech influenced of the oppressed to continue the struggle, but had a tremendous impact in the overseas communities particularly as a result of the publicity given by the media to the trial where the tables were turned. Yes we went over to violence but you are to blame for it because you didn’t listen to the knocks on your door for three generations and we had no option but to do what we have done. It was a heroic act on the part of Mandela and his colleagues in the courtroom, and the UN passed the resolution calling for the release, editorial calls for the release and of course when Mr Mandela became a prisoner on the infamous now famous Robin Island which is a museum now, that had a tremendous effect on the anti apartheid movement throughout the world.
SIMON
You've acted for a roll call of famous figures, Sisiloo, Biko, Slovo, how did acting for them affect the way you were treated socially and politically.
MR BIZOS South Africa is a divided society.
SIMON
Still.
MR BIZOS
Was and to a certain extent still is. When I was asked at the end of a lecture at the Conservative University whether I had suffered any disadvantage as a result of my espousing unpopular causes my ready reply was that I knew of no unpopular cause that I had ever espoused. So yes there was a minority – well a majority of the whites probably considered me a traitor, called me ugly names, refused me a passport, threatened my wife, briefly detained two of my children, but..
SIMON
None of this deterred you?
MR BIZOS
If anything it urged me to carry on because I think that if you show weakness they respect you even less and I had made up my mind that they were not going to stop me and I had to do what I had to do.
SIMON
How influential is Nelson Mandela now in still shaping people's thinking in South Africa?
MR BIZOS
Well he is considered an icon and a legend, he is very careful not to be seen to be overshadowing the President Mbeki. When he's asked questions he says ask my president, but there can be no doubt that his values are an example to all black and white and in fact he himself and others get upset what's going to happen when Mandela goes.
SIMON
Has he set the bar too high?
MR BIZOS
Yes well South Africa is not a one man show, it has leadership in depth. There will never be another Mandela but we don’t compare Mbeki to Mandela we will compare him to your Prime Minister, the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom or the President of France, or the Chancellor of Germany, but not to Mandela.
SIMON
Speaking of those comparisons how does New Zealand figure in South Africa's thinking today?
MR BIZOS
New Zealand is on top of the pops both in Greece and South Africa, except for Rugby of course.
SIMON
We'll put that to one side.
MR BIZOS
We'll put that to one side but you know we admire your social security system, we admire your democracy, we admire your fair mindedness and you are in a sense an example of what a modern democratic country should be. Of course you have an advantage, you haven't got the poverty that we have to take care of.
SIMON
We were strongly opposed to apartheid at the time though. Why then down the track have so many South Africans moved here? White South Africans in particular.
MR BIZOS
White South Africans leave, some of them because they are afraid of the violence to themselves and their family which was bad and which is improving substantially. There are some though who have a feeling of insecurity by making generalisations about what has happened in the rest of Africa without realising that South Africa is different, that South Africa belongs to all those who live in it was the declared policy of the ANC in 1912 when it was first formed and it has persisted ever since and in practice today, although there are some who decry the loss of privilege nobody can really say that they are disadvantaged because of their whiteness or other ground.
SIMON
So why are they coming here then, I mean we hear tales of crime, how bad is it?
MR BIZOS
It's overemphasised, the figures are becoming lessened, it is inevitable that in a society transition where the security forces were completely different, had a completely different role under apartheid, but we are improving daily by having a more efficient Police Force putting down crime. It's unacceptably high.
SIMON
Not as bad as the horror tales.
MR BIZOS
Not as bad as the horror tales but I also don’t want to generalise because there are people of good faith that have found it necessary to leave, but you know for people who have left they have to find a justification for themselves for their friends, and those who ask the question as to why they left and to say that because it is of the high degree of criminality is just I think a convenient
SIMON
So why are they leaving then?
MR BIZOS
Some are leaving because they are not prepared to accept the new reality.
SIMON
So they see New Zealand as a whiter country than South Africa?
MR BIZOS
Yes and Australia even moreso, and Canada even moreso.
SIMON
Even moreso again?
MR BIZOS
Yes, and also it may be an economic, our professionals, our doctors our accountants can earn, I don’t know what the position is in relation to New Zealand can earn three four times more than they earn in South Africa if they go to the UK, Canada, United States and possibly Australia, and New Zealand, their professions are exportable and they tend to equate South Africa with some of the failures of some countries to the north of us.
SIMON
Let's talk about some of the countries to the north of us. Let's talk about Zimbabwe. You've just this month wrapped up the successful defence of Morgan Changarai on charges of alleged treason that he plotted to mastermind the killing of President Mugabe. According to the Times Union newspaper you compared it to the anti apartheid struggle by saying it was substantially similar except that in Zimbabwe the judiciary is under such tremendous stress that in its way it is much worse than it ever was in South Africa. How bad are things in Zimbabwe?
MR BIZOS
In relation to the judiciary they are very bad.
SIMON
And the legal system?
MR BIZOS
And the legal system. Orders are not complied with, eight judges of the High Court have resigned, one judge, the Chief Justice has resigned as a result of threats, magistrates will give decisions against the Police or some arm of government are threatened and many of them just take a ride down to South Africa and come and ask for asylum. So there is an atmosphere of insecurity among the judiciary that you can't really do justice if you have to look behind your shoulder as to what big brother might do if you give a decision. So it is much worse than it was in South Africa because there we had some very bad judges, some good judges but also some very good judges who were free to speak and they gave some trenchant judgements against the authority and in fact one of the reasons why I think a political power grew up was that there was a certain amount of space which the system allowed which we exploited in the good sense of the word, to the hilt.
SIMON
Are you saying the process in South Africa was still judicially robust? It's no longer that way in Zimbabwe. We know that economically there's rampant inflation, what about socially, how bad is the situation there, how bad are the race relations?
MR BIZOS
The minority of whites are viewed in terms of the new policy as foreigners as strangers who stole the land, even though they may have bought it very recently. The personal relationships of those that are there are quite good, it is only in the sort of conflict situation where farms are invaded that the difficulties arise.
SIMON White farmers' rights are also being challenged in places like Namibia and Kenya, do white people have a long term future in Africa?
MR BIZOS
It depends on the country, I believe that in South Africa we are dealing with the problems sensibly. We have creates structures for land restitution and land redistribution, it's slow but it is done by fair lawful structures which do justice to both parties and where you have conflict and obviously there is latent conflict in this sort of situation, unless you have structures to deal with it you are going to be in trouble. I work for the Legal Resources Centre, we have over four thousand cases of land restitution on our books and not for individuals, for communities, and they are patient that sort of is being done and from time to time you have the Minister of Lands handing over a farm on which two or three thousand people are to reoccupy the land that was taken away from them, and others have expectations that sooner or later this will happen to them as well, and our constitution guarantees the right to ownership and just compensation if it is taken. There are calls that we should use the power of expropriation more readily, but the government is sensible and negotiates a deal, but we are also helped to a very large extent that agriculture is not – it's an important but not our main activity, most of the people are living in urban areas, working in factories, and it's an industrialised country and also the sons and daughters of the farmers become professional people they would like to keep their homestead with a swimming pool and the stables for the horses and the small piece of land and they readily make land available from time to time in order for resettlement. So it's a completely different situation. It would be dangerous to generalise about Africa.
SIMON
You said in a Herald interview yesterday that you were optimistic for the future in South Africa, is it the same optimism for Zimbabwe?
MR BIZOS
Long run? Yes, it's a beautiful country, it's a fertile country, it has a marvellous people who are suffering a lot, Changarai said in the witness box when he was accused of advocating violence that he and his party and the people of Zimbabwe did not want it to become a Congo, Rwanda or a Liberia.
SIMON
So you have a long term optimism for it?
MR BIZOS
Yes I do because they are a fairly well educated lot of people with a sense of values.
SIMON
The fundamentals are in place.
MR BIZOS
The fundamentals were in place and I think that they only need the space and a free and fair election.
SIMON
Surely that’s not to much to call for. George Bizos it's been an absolute pleasure meeting you today. Thank you very much for today.
MR BIZOS
Thank you.
AGENDA
JOSIAH BEEMAN
Former US Ambassador to New Zealand
Interviewed by SIMON DALLOW
SIMON
Josiah Beeman cut a colourful figure as the US Ambassador to New Zealand from 1994 to 1999, describing that year's APEC meeting between then US President Clinton and Chinese President Gee Yung as the 800lb gorilla event. A Democrat and member of the Ambassadors for Kerry Campaign, he's here with us now to talk about next week's presidential election and what it could mean for New Zealand US relations if anything. Greetings Ambassador, what's the latest you can tell us as New Zealand slept.
MR BEEMAN
Good morning. Well there haven't been any dramatic new developments, what we refer to as the October Surprise yet that has taken place although I understand that there is going to be a tape recording an alleged tape recording of Osama Bin Laden that’s going to be played by El Jasira in a very short while, what impact this will have on the campaign of course is very difficult to say because of course we don’t know what the tape is going to say, but everybody is highly nervous I think not just about that but just simply because in our system everything like the explosive depot that was found emptied in Iraq and those kinds of things can always present a last minute twist in a very close and hard fought campaign.
SIMON
What to you Ambassador are the substantial differences between the two protagonists, between John Kerry and George Bush?
MR BEEMAN
Well I think the principal one that would of course be of greatest concern on the international affairs front is how we deal and treat with our allies and friends and the Bush administration has made very clear that it doesn’t give two hoots for world opinion and what our closest allies think about what we're doing around the world. A Kerry administration I think would be substantially different from that. On the domestic front which is as important is the issues of jobs and the losses of jobs in this administration, and the Bush administration since the Hoover administration at the time of our great depression in the 1920s that has lost jobs in its four years than added jobs to the American economy. So those kinds of issues, health care, prescription drugs, an issue with which I developed great familiarity when I was in New Zealand, you know are the kinds of important issues to American voters of all ages.
SIMON
What's your involvement in the Kerry campaign Ambassador?
MR BEEMAN
Well I'm a member of the socalled Ambassadors for Kerry. Over 200 former United States Ambassadors have endorsed as candidacy for presidency including almost 100 career diplomats not just political appointees but career diplomats who are basically non partisan, and including Ambassador John Eisenhower, the son of President Dwight Eisenhower, who says that George Bush does not represent the kind of Republican Party that his father represented.
SIMON
Let's look at the New Zealand angle, how would New Zealand be treated differently under a Kerry administration?
MR BEEMAN
Well I think first of all some of the concerns that from my own experience are very important to the people of New Zealand would be much higher on the Kerry agenda than they would be on the Bush agenda. Nuclear proliferation for instance is one that John Kerry's gonna take a considerably more active role in doing something about. I mean there is absolutely no question about the fact that the Bush administration has really cocked up the handling of North Korea's development of nuclear weapons and acquisition of those weapons. The Iranians are about to be called on the carpet of the International Atomic Energy Administration, Brazil is talking about developing nuclear capabilities that I think are very worrisome to those of us who are concerned about nuclear proliferation and I think that’s an issue for instance in which we share a common agenda, the United States and New Zealand. It would be much higher on a Kerry agenda than it has been on the Bush agenda, and that would be a big issue.
SIMON
With that attitude to nuclear proliferation does that mean that we can expect to see a warming of relations toward New Zealand. Is our nuclear policy still the big hurdle.
MR BEEMAN
Well I think your nuclear policy I guess, or our nuclear policy towards your nuclear policy are still issues within certain elements of the Defence Department, but I think our relationship you know is a very warm one already, we've stood shoulder to shoulder in every conflict in this century. New Zealand has played a useful and important role in Afghanistan and in Iraq and so I think we don’t want to over dramatise that relationship and we may need to just kind of fence it off and say we're going to get on with the other aspects of our relationship.
SIMON
Do you think we could get back into ANZUS?
MR BEEMAN
Well I don’t know if New Zealand really wants to get back into ANZUS but I certainly believe that United States naval vessels should be free to visit New Zealand harbours if New Zealand's prepared to welcome them. We have no nuclear weapons on board any of our ships at the present time, or at least insofar as we know today. I know our coast guard ships that are involved in servicing Antarctica would love to be able to make port visits in Christchurch and Dunedin and places up and down the coast of New Zealand. They would love to be able to do that, and so I think with the right kind of effort I think we may be able to make some progress on that front, but I don’t want to over emphasise the importance of it.
SIMON
What about our chances of getting a free trade agreement will they be improved under John Kerry?
MR BEEMAN
Well I think they will be improved under Kerry, now obviously you know we already have pretty good trade relations with New Zealand and New Zealand certainly poses next to no barriers that I'm familiar with, I'm a little out of tough but, to the importation of US goods, and so I see not reason by the United States and New Zealand should not enter into a free trade agreement fairly speedily and without a great deal of difficulty. I think the problem is for New Zealand to get up on the list of countries that we are busy negotiating with, I think that’s the big obstacle, and hopefully in the Kerry administration we'd be able to bowl a little further down the field.
SIMON
You of course had a bit to do with Helen Clark when you were here, do you think John Kerry would work well with her?
MR BEEMAN
I think they would get along extremely well. John Kerry is a very affable person, I've known him fairly well during his tenure on the Senate and I would expect that they would enjoy excellent relations, they're both very thoughtful intelligent and smart people and I think they would get along extremely well.
SIMON
Ambassador we look forward to you lobbying advocating successfully on New Zealand's behalf and under the Kerry administration. Thank you very much for appearing on Agenda today.
MR BEEMAN
Thank you very much. Bye now.
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