Agenda transcript: 08 04 2006 - TARIANA TURIA, AMBASSADOR ZHANG YUANYUAN

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AGENDA Presented by LISA OWEN

LISA		Who really holds the balance of power in parliament? What is China doing in the South Pacific? Technology in the House, is this the new political accessory?

		Hullo and welcome to Agenda, two weeks ago Tariana Turia was a guest speaker at the Act Party Conference, this week she was trading blows with Don Brash over National's plan to abolish the Maori seats. Just where is the Maori Party positioning itself.

BALANCE OF POWER IN PARLIAMENT

GUEST:		TARIANA TURIA Co-Leader, Maori Party

GUEST		JOHN ROUGHAN – Columnist, NZ Herald
COMMENTATORS:		CHRIS BALDOCK – Editor, Sunday News


LISA		The Maori Party was formed primarily as a voice for Maori but what do you make of a party whose leader feels betrayed by Labour and has also vowed to do its utmost to keep National from the government benches. What does the future hold for a party that seems aligned with everyone and no one? Tariana Turia joins me now. Can we start off by asking who are you best political friends and allies?

TARIANA		Well what we try to do is to treat each of them respectfully, you know we're not particularly aligned with any group at all but we do believe that it's very important that we talk to everybody and that we're respectful to everybody.

LISA		You did appear at the Act Party Conference.

TARIANA		Yes.

LISA		By your own comments you said you feel that you have a lot in common with the Greens, you voted for a number of National bills and many of your voters gave their party vote to Labour, so how do you reconcile all of those things with your swinging allegiances?

TARIANA		No they're not swinging allegiances, we're an issue focused party, we vote according to our kaupapa and our policy. We've voted a lot of times with Labour as well, I think probably equally in terms of the vote, we tend to vote probably more with the Greens as we did pre election and possibly it's because philosophically we do share particular views, but we're not a party of the left and we're not a party of the right, we're a kaupapa driven party and we focus on issues not personalities.

LISA		How valuable does that then make your votes, because they seem to be more valuable at the moment than say just the sum of four votes?

TARIANA		Yes, well they do get valuable because of course the Greens and United Future haven’t given an unconditional vote to the government, they do give the government confidence and supply but on a legislation by legislation basis they don’t necessarily vote with the government so that actually you know gives more clout to our vote as well. The government does speak with us on pieces of legislation where they cannot get co-operation from United Future and New Zealand First.

LISA		What do your supporters think of the way you are handling yourselves in parliament, I see you're running on your website at the moment the opportunity to give their feedback on your appearance at the Act Party, what generally is the feedback about the way you're operating?

TARIANA		Well our supporters are very supportive of us of course and the majority of them are very happy that we are operating in the way that we are and that we do treat all parties equally. Of course prior to the election you know our people have had a very emotional tie to the Labour Party that’s true, but I think that now seeing how the Maori Party operates in parliament they are beginning to change that view and to see that they can have a very strong and independent voice in parliament that doesn’t necessarily need to be aligned to the mainstream parties.

LISA		While you say they're supportive of you surely they don’t necessarily agree with absolutely everything?

TARIANA		Oh definitely not, and they're highly critical.

LISA		In what way?

TARIANA		Well they certainly send us emails if they don’t agree with a position that we've taken. We had some criticism over sending the bill of Wayne Mapp's on the three months – probation employment one. Many of our people particularly those who have union affiliations were unhappy but they did accept our argument that there are some issues that should go to select committee for debate and that was one of them that we believe should.

LISA		Now your party was formed on a single issue, it came out of the Foreshore and Seabed issue, what are you doing to create a durable party beyond that single issue do you think?

TARIANA		Well I think we're doing that in the way that we're approaching matters in the House, we've spoken on almost every piece of legislation we have a view, and our view is that almost every piece of legislation that goes through the House impacts on Maori people, so we're definitely not a one issue party. That’s the way the media has portrayed us, but no we're not.

LISA		Would you agree though that you were born out of one issue?

TARIANA		Oh I would say that that would be a very fair comment that that’s what galvanised our people definitely.

LISA		So are you going to be moving yourself into the position of kingmakers for the next election?

TARIANA		Well what we're hoping is that our people will take this opportunity right now with a Maori option to get out there to get on to the Maori role, they are Maori people after all and they do want to be represented in parliament with a very independent voice and they cannot get that in a mainstream party and they're beginning to see that given that you rarely hear for the Labour Maori MPs.

LISA		Let's look at the Labour Party, how do you think that they treat their Maori MPs, you’ve been very vocal lately with the handing over of duties when ministers went away that they weren’t handed to the Maori MPs, how do you think they treat their Maori MPs?

TARIANA		I think that that’s a question really that you should pose to the Labour Maori MPs, but we were concerned that those two associate ministers, associate to Chris Carter, weren’t given the portfolios when he went overseas and of course we heard the government in the House say that that was because neither of them were in cabinet. So you either accept that that’s the reason why they didn’t get those portfolios or you begin to wonder what their role actually is.

LISA		What do you think their role is?

TARIANA		Well it's policy mainly, there's no doubt about that, I've been an associated minister myself and I've been overlooked too when the minister's been overseas, but there were times when I was given responsibility for the ministerial portfolio, so it can happen.

LISA		Your words were that they were patronising their Maori MPs to some degree and telling them what they could do and say, can you work with a party that you feel that about?

TARIANA		Well it's true that you cannot speak unless you have permission, I mean that’s an absolute. I know that from my own experience that if you are seen to speak out on issues you know you do get told from the 9th floor, so they're very controlled and I think that we can say that quite openly because you rarely hear them speak. Shane Jones appears to be the one who they trust to speak publicly, it used to be John Tamihere if you recall, so they do select people who they think they can trust to give their message, not a Maori message.

LISA		What about National? John Brash is saying that he wants to get rid of the Maori seats, so how can you work with someone who would see your demise?

TARIANA		Well that’s very interesting of course because you know it's very easy to politic around these issues and Maori issues have been used as a political football for a long time and what we saw when it came down to who was gonna be the government, that he didn’t seem overly concerned to come to us and talk with us, so you know I think there's a lot of political rhetoric there.

LISA		Let's bring our panel in here. Gentlemen is the Maori Party going to be the kingmakers by next election?

JOHN		Not so far, and I really would like to ask can you give us an example of where your supporters can see you’ve made a difference with your independent position in the House.

TARIANA		Well I think that they believe that we're holding the government to account. They also believe that for the first time they're hearing a very very clear Maori voice on issues which they don’t believe that they heard even when I was in Labour. They don’t believe that I spoke up in the way that they would have wanted me to and are very very pleased now that that is happening.

JOHN		Can you point us to a particular piece of legislation where your vote has made a difference, your four votes have made a difference?

TARIANA		Well certainly Wayne Mapp's piece of legislation going into the House, the other one is the Human Transplants piece of legislation which our people must discuss, they must discuss, we're the ones who need the transplants, and so we did move to have that sent to select committee. Look there's been so many pieces of legislation to be frank I can't think of it off the top of my head, but I do believe that we're very careful in the way that we vote and we do take into account – we do send emails out to our people, we send the legislation out to them,, we ask them for feedback, so we are very proactive in getting feedback to assist us in how we vote.

LISA		Tariana can I just ask you, John T is being heralded as the great leadership hope for the National Party how would you feel about working with him?

TARIANA		You know I've got my views about who might be a really good leader but in a way it's none of my business.

LISA		What are your views?

TARIANA		Well I always like Bill English, you know I like his style, I like his manner, I think that had National bit the bullet that in fact he would have made a great leader.

LISA		You would be happy to work with the National Party led by Bill English?

TARIANA		We would be happy to work with anybody who's prepared to advance Maori aspirations.

LISA		But obviously there's a pre-existing relationship there for you with Mr English?

TARIANA		Oh absolutely when I was in opposition and he was the Minister of Health we built I believe a respectful relationship and that continues today.

CHRIS		There must be an awful lot of confusion out there for your voters, I mean you're gonna be on the road over the next few weeks talking about the Maori role and hopefully get more people on to that, although that’s gonna be quite a challenge in itself, but you’ve got the confusion, you're rebuking Don Brash this week on one hand and yet we know if the opportunity arises you will seek to do a deal to help him form a government at the next election, what message is that sending to your voters because I just find it terribly confusing.

TARIANA		No I don’t think that I ever said that we were going to help him to form a government at the next election.

CHRIS		But you will if there's an opportunity to advance your cause.

TARIANA		Well you know I think that’s what politics is about, politics is about compromise and it's only natural that like all other political parties we're gonna seek to be where we believe that our aspirations can be best advanced. If it means that it's the National Party then that’s something that we have to sell to our people, if it's the Labour Party it will be the Labour Party.

CHRIS		But you’ve got such a massive issue standing between the two parties for Maori role.

TARIANA		Well to be frank with you I think that that’s a massive issue that’s across all parties, I think that really if people were being very honest most of the political parties including Labour would get rid of the Maori seats, of they could, but what they're doing is they're adopting this line that it's for Maori people to decide and maybe Dr Brash could learn from that line.

LISA		Tariana can I just ask you one last question realistically how many extra seats do you think you could get?

TARIANA		In this option? I think realistically we could get one or two. It would be absolutely wonderful if we could get up to 13 because then it means that those of us who are in parliament, not necessarily just the Maori Party, that we can represent our people better. It's very difficult, my electorate goes from Tawa in the south right up to Tirau in the north, it's almost a third of the North Island and I only get the same resources as a general electorate MP who might get around his electorate in ten minutes.

LISA		Thank you very much for being with us this morning Tariana Turia.



CHINA IN THE SOUTH PACIFIC

GUEST:		ZHANG YUANYUAN Chinese Ambassador to NZ

LISA		Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao concluded his visit this week by promising more firsts in the relationship between the two countries. New Zealand was the first western developed nation to open free trade talks with China and should be the first to sign an agreement. I spoke with the Chinese Ambassador Zhang Yuanyuan yesterday and began by asking him why China is interested in a free trade agreement with New Zealand.

MR ZHANG		The Premier's visit which just ended a short while ago is the third highest ranking official visiting New Zealand. All this shows that the Chinese indeed are very very interested in your country which may be small to you but not to us.

LISA		The studies that both New Zealand and China have done has shown that we could benefit by growing our exports up to 40% with a free trade against, but for China it is only as small as 10%. What is there for China in this agreement if it goes ahead?

MR ZHANG		Well I think you have to start it with this anyway you know since China became a member of the World Trade Organisation and we worked our this free trade agreement with a number of countries most recent if I remember correctly is Chile, but New Zealand is one of the OECD countries and we're interested in developing a full fledged economic partnership with all the countries in the world so we have to start it somewhere and New Zealand seems to me a very perfect place to start.

LISA		So these negotiations are perhaps a template for China to use when it goes to other countries?

MR ZHANG		Yes in fact during the course of this visit we highlighted the successful conclusion of the free trade agreement between China and New Zealand would bring benefit not only to the two peoples but also set a good example for China's future endeavour to conclude similar agreements with other countries not the OECD countries.

LISA		What stage are the negotiations at and what perhaps is slowing things down?

MR ZHANG		Well I don’t quite agree with the description that things are slowing down in fact the officials and experts from both sides have been working very very hard to expedite the process of the negotiations. We have had six rounds already and the seventh round is scheduled for May, and now with this renewed political commitment at the highest level between the two countries I'm sure the process can only get quicker moving forward.

LISA		New Zealand and China have had many firsts together but China is also negotiating with Australia for a free trade agreement, is New Zealand going to be first this time with a free trade agreement?

MR ZHANG		Well I personally think New Zealand stands a very good chance of being the first in becoming the first OECD country to have concluded the free trade agreement with China. In Australia our Premier also talked about this issue FTA with the Australian counterpart, there I believe they have said something like they will do their best so that they could accelerate the process so in one or two years they will get substantial progress in the negotiation process.

LISA		But you believe perhaps we will be first?

MR ZHANG		Whereas here we're talking about within a year or two we can conclude – conclude the signing of the agreement.

LISA		Your Premier mentioned himself that agriculture and manufacturing are perhaps sticking points in a free trade agreement, can you tell us about that, where are the negotiations at with these issues?

MR ZHANG		Well those two areas are perhaps you might describe as the sensitive areas to both sides. China remains a country of farmers and 800 million of the Chinese population are rural residents living on the farmland so their welfare, their wellbeing have a great bearing on the country's future. So anything that might affect their wellbeing and their future will be a very important issue, so that’s perhaps why we call it a sensitive issue. Here in this country in manufacture you have manufacture jobs that have been lost because of imports so perhaps that’s what the people describe them as sensitive areas.

LISA		But not insurmountable?

MR ZHANG		They're not insurmountable obstacles provided there's a political will, provided there's hard work we will eventually overcome these obstacles.

LISA		The Premier announced an enormous aid programme or package during his visit to the Pacific Island nations, how important is that area to China and what plans do you have in that area?

MR ZHANG		The plan essentially is the provision of some three billion …RNB in three years to the Pacific Island states in the area of infrastructure development, personnel training and perhaps other areas agreed by the two sides. China, even though itself is a developing country but China has benefited from the process of globalisation and opening and reform and so on, we want to share the benefits of these policies with other developing nations particularly those who have not progressed as rapidly as China has in the past 30 years so to speak.

LISA		Is it diplomatic expediency though Ambassador to invest this money in the Pacific?

MR ZHANG		No not at all, I think if you still remember last September in New York City at the United Nations 16th Anniversary Summit, President Hu Jin Tao of China announced a very large development assistance programme in favour of the developing nations. What we have seen here in Fiji is a specific effort to act on the pledges President Hu made back in last September.

LISA		Your Premier during his visit he mentioned China's human rights record and he said we have our shortcomings our record is not perfect, this has been widely reported. How do you reconcile New Zealand's commitment to human rights issues with China's record and the relationship between the two countries?

MR ZHANG		I heard what the Premier said about that, I think all the countries are dedicated to better or stronger enjoyment of human rights by their citizens and China is dedicated to the same purpose. The Premier also outlined a number of things we have done in the past few years in the area of promoting human rights and fundamental freedoms in China and he also mentioned China's desire to enter into human rights dialogue with other countries on the basis of mutual respect. Human rights is a very tricky thing you know that, you can compare countries on that on a contemporary basis or you can compare a country's situation now with what it used to be like years ago. As far as China's concerned I have to say that we have made a lot of progress in human rights and we have done a lot and will continue to do more to promote human rights in our country.

LISA		Thank you very much for your time Ambassador.


TECHNOLOGY IN THE HOUSE
Presented by SIMON POUND

LISA		Blackberries and other mobile devices like them enable instant communication, a fact not lost on our politicians. Simon Pound takes a look at this latest political accessory and why the rules governing them are so important.

SIMON		The House of Parliament, a traditional place, but one that attempts to keep up with new technologies. The Blackberry – a new mobile device is popular.

		Well this is the world's most loved Blackberry.

		What it does it does really well.

		It's just revolutionised everything.

SIMON		How many MPs would you say are using Blackberry or similar technology?

		Well I think everybody's got a mobile phone, I would guess around half use a Blackberry or something that’s fully reactive like this.

SIMON		National's Maurice Williamson agrees.

		I would have thought around about half of the MPs at present.

SIMON		Because they have many advantages.

		I surf the web on it, my secretary can update my calendar.

		I get a single feed for both email and SMS.

		I use it in the House to text.

		Everything comes into the one device here.

SIMON		So they are feature packed and widely used but that use is not without restriction. National Chief Whip, Lindsay Tish.

		Well the Speaker's come out with a ruling that says during question time no mobile devices are allowed and we accept that ruling.

		Standing orders forbid it being used at question time in the same way that laptops can't be used at question time.

		Oh it's a very interesting one because technically you're not allowed to use a cellphone, don’t use it to talk, but you're allowed to use a laptop and there's never been ruled on whether you can text or not.

SIMON		There is that ruling Lindsay and David have referred to, it's entitled Use of Laptops and Mobile Devices in the Chamber. It states –

		They must not be used until after question time has concluded.

		This ruling superseded a 1997 document that had a similar provision in force – MPs are –

		Not to be connected to any network or telephone in the chamber.

		And a Speaker's ruling of 2004 gives an even broader ban.

		Cellphones should be switched off within the hearing of the debating chamber.

SIMON		When do you use it in the House?

		Pretty regularly.

SIMON		Are you in contact with journalists when you're in the House.

		No.

SIMON		But we've been told by someone in the House at that time that on at least one occasion Mr Hide received a text from a reporter and rose to speak in the House as a consequence of that text. A TV3 reporter texted Mr Hide to tell him Labour MP David Benson Pope was asleep. Mr Hide then said –

		I raise a point of order Madam Speaker, I wonder whether I could seek the leave of the House to have the bell rung in order to wake up the Minister of Education David Benson Pope for question time.

SIMON		Did you receive a text that day from …?

RODNEY		No.

SIMON		We've been told that you did receive a text.

RODNEY		I don’t think so, but no.

SIMON		There is an important issue here, parliament standing orders prohibit MPs from talking to strangers, they mean people who are not MPs or parliamentary officers on the floor of the House. Why? Associate Professor of Law at Auckland Bill Hodge.

BILL HODGE Any time there is a stranger influencing conduct of a member you’ve got a serious concern about the integrity of parliament.

SIMON		It seems though that for some MPs using their mobile devices while they're in question time is second nature.

		The time now is ten to three Rodney Hide is in the House at question time, I'm going to send him a text asking are we still good for 3.30.

		I've just received a message back from Rodney Hide while he's in the House saying sure phone or in person.

		Whatever the rules governing mobile devices and however MPs understand them the Blackberry is here to stay.

MAURICE		The only time we're occluded from them now is question time and that'll go as well I promise you that will go.

		Parliament's slowly gearing up to the idea that you know there's these other ways of operating.

LISA		Well joining us again are our guest commentators Chris Baldock and John Roughan. What do you think gentlemen big deal or not?

CHRIS		Not use Blackberries, haven’t got one yet.

JOHN		I am illiterate on these things but I think that parliament really is a bit precious about technology like this, I mean does it really matter if strangers can communicate with people in the House during question time or any other time?

CHRIS		Well I think it does because I mean you can have anyone pulling whatever strings they want to pull and I'm sure there's a few of our MPs would benefit from a little bit of prompting at question time having seen their performances, but there are you know forces mitigating outside the House that could easily use these devices to push their own cause.

LISA		You risk having a puppet master and a puppet?

CHRIS		Absolutely.

JOHN		Is it any different from writing a letter that they will use in the House at some point?

CHRIS		Well why elect an MP, you know let's be transparent about it.

LISA		It's instantaneous instruction though isn't it if it's used in that way, you can react, you can get to your feet, as the allegation is made there in respect of Rodney Hide you can get to your feet and act on it instantaneously.

JOHN		Does it matter?

CHRIS		Well it creates a situation where your MP is just a front man for other people.

JOHN		Well to a degree they are anyway, but they are also – they also can act as sort of filters and critics of what they're told and they don’t do everything that they're told, but of course they take advice from outside all the time. This is just a very quick way of getting it.

LISA		At a base level though should their concentration be on something else like what's going on in the House at the time.

CHRIS		Probably thinking about what they're saying a lot of the time, but yeah I don’t think it's ideal.

LISA		Alright can we go back to our first guest, Leader of the Maori Party Tariana Turia. Any surprises in that, what were your thoughts on the way she saw her allegiances or non allegiances.

JOHN		I was interested in hearing her say so often that they're neither right nor left, quite independent and so on and I actually think that she has a point, that the Maori Party I think if it has a role in politics has to represent all Maori views if it can and it may try and funnel those views into the House through itself through an independent political structure and I'm waiting to see that happen, that would be interesting, but they do have, I mean traditional Maori people like Turiana do have a lot in common with the right when you think about it, and I'm thinking about in areas like ceremony and respect for elders and tradition and heritage and all this sort of thing which are the natural territory of the rather than the left really.

LISA		Chris her naming of Bill English as her preferred National leader.

CHRIS		Yeah I'm sure John Key is I think in his muesli or whatever he does on a Saturday morning quite pleased with that. I think someone else pointed out it's the first time we've heard an opposite you know another party leader come out clearly and say something like that, what it does for Bill I don’t know, but I think she's clearly a woman who's passionate about the issues facing Maori and about her people and we should never doubt that but I think the idea that the party can jump wherever they want to jump to achieve their causes is just going to create a lot of confusion and perhaps cut to their credibility a little bit over time.

LISA		So has she scuttled Bill English's chances or has she increased them?

JOHN		Oh probably made no difference, I think if Bill does have a second life in leadership it'll be a long and hard climb back for him as it was for John Howard but it can be done as Howard has shown.

CHRIS		But National will make their own call on that issue.

LISA		If you had to pin the Maori Party's colours to one flagpole which would it be?

CHRIS		I think she will look towards National without a doubt.

JOHN		I think Turiana has a lot in common with the right and we shouldn’t rule out the fact that it's possible that she'll go in but I do think on balance when it comes to the crunch she'll have to remember that most Maori vote Labour and she's taking a big risk if she crosses that line.

CHRIS		Yeah she is taking a risk but that was the first time I'd met Tariana and I was very very impressed by her, I think she's a caring person, she recognises the issues, whether she gets to her end goal we don’t know whatever that is but I think good on her for tackling things the way she is at the moment.

LISA		Issue by issue basis, you see some merit in that?

CHRIS		Yeah, I do I do, because there are some huge issues, I mean we see them come into the office very day of the week you know across the spectrum you know the Maori spectrum and there are a lot of problems that have gotta be addressed, and the UN report while it's been glossed over by the government and dismissed in a lot of ways it has raised some points and we can't just push them onto the back burner.

JOHN		China was interesting I thought and when you hear them say that we are the first and we are the forerunner and we are the model for the other FTAs that they want to do with the other countries it sends a collywobble up me a little bit. Given the concerns about piracy and Chinese ….intellectual property and so on a lot of countries might be watching what we do on those issues on this free trade agreement.