Agenda transcript: 27 05 2006 - GREENS CO-LEADERSHIP SPECIAL

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AGENDA Presented by LISA OWEN GREEN PARTY CO-LEADERSHIP

LISA	Hullo and welcome to Agenda. Today a Green Party Co-Leadership special. Can the party find someone to replace Rod Donald's political skills, someone with the charisma to lift them above the 5% mark how can they shake what some of these candidates describe as an image of clog wearing hippy lifestylers? Should the Greens drop their more controversial campaigns like decriminalising marijuana and get back to their basics – eco politics. Jeanette Fitzsimons has been co-leader since 1995 and next weekend she will be joined by one of these four men. Dave Clendon, Russel Norman, Nandor Tanczos or Mike Ward. Welcome to you all.

	Also in the studio we have an audience of Green supporters, we'll be taking questions from the floor and we want you to phone in with your questions. The number is 09 9167820.

CANDIDATES:
	Dave Clendon – Former Party Co-Convenor. Lecturer in Environmental Management. Can't see the Greens working with National under his co-leadership.

	Mike Ward – Former Green MP. Artist and Author. Also standing for Nelson mayoralty.

	Nandor Tanczos – Current Green MP. Believes the party should move towards the centre. Believes the co-leaders should be an MP.

	Russel Norman – Green Party Development Co-ordinator. Former Campaign Manager. Believes image is the Green's biggest challenge.

LISA	So let's start the show with a question from the floor. Lindus you have a question for Nandor, what is it?

Q:	Lindus: Nandor you're probably aware that there's some comment about having a dreadlocked Rastafarian as Co-Leader of the Green Party isn't going to be a good look for the party, do you have any comment on that?

A:	Nandor: Thanks Lindus, look I think we have to acknowledge there is a strand of religious intolerance in this country and for some people my faith is a disadvantage or something that they see as negative, but I think that the people who are likely to vote Green or even possible Green voters are people who celebrate diversity. The Greens are a party that celebrates diversity whether it's ecological diversity or social diversity and I think that the people we're looking for to vote Green are the people less likely to be put off by my faith.

LISA	That's an image question isn't it, if I can come to you Dave Clendon, you’ve said that you're a palatable acceptable face, so what do you mean by that, why are you more palatable than Nandor say?

	Dave: A great deal it's simply about perception, we know Nandor's an extremely dedicated and effective politician to the extent that it's a challenge for some of the voting population to acknowledge difference. We within the Greens embrace difference and it's something that we will continue to do but it's simply about perception.

LISA	So Mike Ward should the Green Party pander to prejudice, I mean that might prompt some people to ask questions about your age?

	Mike: No I don’t think we should pander to prejudice, I think that Nandor would make a splendid leader and I think he's right I think most people actually to welcome diversity, certainly Green voters so I wouldn’t see that as being a disadvantage most of the time. I'm sure there are some out there who would be upset by having Nandor anywhere in the country, well they're probably not gonna vote Green anyway.

LISA	You said make a splendid leader, moreso than you?

	Mike: No no, if I thought he was more splendid than me I wouldn’t be standing.

LISA	Russel Norman can I come to you, it's all about perception isn't it and you said that you’ve got the breadth to appeal to other people, the people who don’t normally vote Green, who says that you’ve got the breadth?

	Russel: Well I think it's about talking about the issues of climate change and public transport, it's about reaching out into the suburbs and towns, and I think that those are the issues that I'm focused on and I think that people who are thinking about voting Green will identify with those issues.

LISA	So on the subject of perceptions then Dave Clendon has said publicly that you're a poor communicator, now why do you think that he might have said that and how's that perception going to hinder you in this candidacy?

	Russel: I think that in the course of a co-leadership contest there are things said that people are trying to position themselves and that’s okay, Dave and I are old friends, we've known each other for ages, I think that will be fine, and I'd just like to say in your intro you said that we were looking for a co-leader that could lift us above 5%, in fact we're polling well above 5% and we were above 5% at the last election.

LISA	5.3%.

	Russel: It's about taking us to 10%.

LISA	Alright let's take a caller on the phones, we've got Mark from Auckland, now what's your question Mark and who's it for?

Q:	Mark: Probably the last guy you spoke to but it's a general question for all of them. Would any candidate be willing to actually test policy particularly on climate change, it's a major thrust for the Greens, I want to focus on Jeanette Fitzsimons' speech on budget night, she actually made this statement that the earth now is warmer than it has been for 650,000 years when there were no humans, well that to me is hypocrisy on the Green Party policy, she's saying that when there were no humans and that means no cars, no factories….

LISA	So what's your question Mark – get to the nub of your question.

	If the earth was warm when there were not humans ….

LISA	Okay so should global warming be one of your key policies I think is what our caller is saying.

A:	Russel: The intergovernmental panel on climate change its fourth assessment report has made it very very clear that there is climate changes happening, it's human induced and it is the single largest threat to humankind, and if we don’t do something about climate change now then our children and our children's children are going to have to wear the consequences for the rest of the century. The budget speech that he's referring to Jeanette was responding to Cullen's budget, and in that budget Cullen announced one and a half billion dollars of extra roading funding and over the long term public transport funding's going to be decreasing, that is a budget for a world in which climate change isn't happening, it's a budget for a world in which petrol prices aren’t peaking, that is not a budget for the world that we live in.

LISA	Question from the floor.

Q:	Rick: Mike I couldn’t help but notice that you’ve been out of the country for almost the entire co-leader election, why is that? Are you serious about becoming co-leader?

A:	Mike: Yes indeed I am, I've always been serious about being a Green I'm probably the longest running Green around. The timing was unfortunate, I had to take a trip before March, I went over there to write a book, I hope the book will do the Greens well. Getting back to the climate change thing though you know I have grandchildren and in the lifetime of my grandchildren this planet is likely to become uninhabitable for a good slice of the population. Having been in India for two and a half months and seeing what you know high temperatures are like I am as serious about this leadership as I have ever been about anything that I've ever done for the party and as I say I've been doing it for a long time.

LISA	Mike Ward you’ve indicated a desire to be the Nelson Mayor, so that’s still on the agenda is it?

	Mike: Yes indeed.

LISA	So which of these jobs is the part time one then, the co-leadership or the mayoralty?

	Mike: Neither of them are part time, I think if you can be a member of parliament and co-leader you can certainly be mayor and co-leader, they're both full time jobs and both would be an expression of my politics.

LISA	So what guarantee can you give this audience that you're gonna have the time to dedicate to the co-leadership, if you were successful in both races?

	Mike: Look I'm a busy person I always have been a busy person, I have squeezed a lot into my life, I think if Rod Donald can do it and Rod was an extraordinarily busy person then certainly I can do the mayoralty and the co-leadership.

LISA	Well audience is that okay, show me by raising your hands, is it okay for your co-leader to have two full time jobs? Would you accept that? Right, an even split perhaps. We're going to the phone lines now, a question from Ron in Auckland. What's your question and who's it for?

Q:	Ron: My question's for Russel Norman. The media's often sympathetic Russel to the Green's messages on environmental concerns, how would you work to ensure that the Green's message on social justice receive more attention?

A:	Russel: Well the Greens are probably the only party that’s consistently taken a stand around child poverty and will continue to do that, that was a key part of our last election campaign. Sue Bradford has taken a leading role in advocating against poverty in New Zealand and she will continue to do that. As a team we are firmly committed to social justice as much as environmental sustainability.

LISA	Alright I've got a question for Nandor Tanczos. You described parliament as a toxic hell hole and there were questions over your commitment to returning to parliament. You said in your pitch for the co-leadership that you won't kill yourself for this party nor will you sacrifice your family. What's the guarantee that you can handle the pressure of being co-leader and an MP in parliament?

	Nandor: Well let me say I'm the kind of person who likes to give due consideration to a decision before I make it rather than making it and then regretting it afterwards, so I did give a lot of thought to whether I would return to parliament, I gave a lot of thought to whether I would run for co-leader as well. Having weighed it up and having made the decision I'm 100% committed to doing the best job I can as Green Co-leader if I'm selected. But let me say that I don’t think that Green's success is gonna come from working harder and harder and harder and putting out more outputs, I think that what we have to do is be clear in our message and communicate more clearly, because there is a growing awareness of the issues that we're talking about. You look in the paper you see it every day, climate change, the transportation problem, peak oil, the issues that we've been talking about for so long are apparent in the day to day lives of ordinary people. We have to figure out how to communicate our solutions to those problems really clearly because when people understand our solutions they will support us.

LISA	We're going to another question from the audience here. Linda your question about power.

Q:	Linda: Dave the question's for you. Imagine the Green Party is in the position of power at the next election, what are the key issues that you would focus on to improve our society.

A:	Dave: Okay that’s a big question. The short answer is to empower communities to make their own decisions about what's in their best interests and to do that from a national level, it's an unlikely scenario, it's one I can accept very readily. I think New Zealanders are very capable of directing their own future, of being self determining in terms of where they want to go and what they want to do, I think we can create an environment where that can happen and to allow people to make their own decisions, because I think there's been a lack of trust. We've noted recently that politicians are about the least trusted professions in the country and I believe that cuts both ways to the extent that politicians and political parties don’t trust the voters, why should the voters trust them. So to establish a degree of understanding and indeed trust between the leaders and the led that’s a key challenge and I think it's something that the Green can do because we naturally default to an engaged consensus decision making process, it's how we operate, it's intuitive to us, so to expand that to the wider population would be a really good challenge and I think it's something I hope we get the chance to do.

LISA	Let's go to the phones now, and I think we've got James on the line.

Q:	James: For the floor thank you. Why should people vote Green?

A:	Mike: If you care about the future the Greens is the only party that has any future. It is about empowering communities, Dave was right on the nub there you do need to get our communities making the kinds of decisions about the way they live their lives that enhance both their own lives and the capacity of the planet to sustain life and right now we know that people are working their butts off, they have never spent so long in the workforce, they have never consumed so much, they’ve never spent so much time sitting in their motorcars and never spent so little time actually living. Now the Green Party is about empowering people to make good choices about the way they live their lives and I can think of no better reason for voting for us.

LISA	Nandor perhaps you should take that it's a seemingly simple question but it's actually the nub of the issue isn't it. Why should they vote for you?

	Nandor: Because the Greens is the only party that’s taking the real issues that face us seriously. I mean if you look at the world that we're living in we are undermining the capacity of the planet to sustain life and in particular to sustain human life and the Greens are the only party that’s putting that at the forefront of the agenda, talking about it and looking for the solutions, so we're the only party with a map and a compass of actually how to address the ecological crisis that we face. Most other political parties are even denying that we have a problem and that’s why people have to vote Green.

LISA	Dave Clendon can I ask you, you reckon that this party relies too heavily on their MPs, MPs like Nandor, aren’t they a vigorous asset though, I mean what's your platform for publicity and do people know who you are outside of this room?

	Dave: You're right I think absolutely that the MPs are a major thrust of the getting the message out there they're doing an enormous amount of work, one of my reasons for standing is that I believe with a relatively small caucus we need to add numbers not to put more load on people who are working incredibly hard already. I don’t have a big public profile but that’s something that can be worked on, I don’t see it as a particular disadvantage at this point. I don’t have any negative profile so there's no baggage that accompanies me that people need to wade through before they can hear what I'm saying, they can just take me from day one at face value, if they like what they see that’s a good thing, if they don’t then I guess the party will send me a message in another year's time.

LISA	Let's go to another question from the audience, Jeremy has a question for Russel.

Q:	Jeremy: Yeah Russel, at the last election we got twice the number of seats that United got but they negotiated better than we did, now they have more influence in the government than the Greens. What would you do ensure that we can get the best deal that we can from the winning party at the next election?

A:	Russel: Well the key thing is to get the maximum number of votes, that has to be the starting point, the more votes you get the more seats you have the more power you're gonna have. So that’s gotta be the major focus, that’s why we need to focus on those campaigns that touch people in their everyday lives, talk to people about when you're trying to get to work in the morning and you're trying to you know get on the bus and it's full well the Greens have got solutions around that.

LISA	Russel I'll just interrupt you there, you were the Campaign Manager at the last election, the Greens lost support you lost MPs so what are you gonna do to grow that vote?

	Russel: Well at the last election all the small parties got squashed by the fight between the two major parties. Of all the small parties the Greens lost the smallest proportion of the vote and that was because we had a focused campaign and we didn’t make any mistakes and we stayed on message, we didn’t attack anyone.

LISA	So you came off the best of the worst?

	Russel: Well the truth was the last election was kinda contest between these two giants and we got a bit squashed between that. The future for us has to be to grow the Green Party so that we don’t fall into that position in the future.

LISA	To the phones and we've got Ian from Christchurch.

Q:	It's for the whole panel. Energy crises are impacting on all of us at this point in time. Since the Greens have had an influence over government electricity prices have gone absolutely through the roof. Now we run the risk of losing our steel mill our aluminium smelter and also our pulp and paper industry, and in my own personal case I've actually shut down part of our business because of the cost of electricity. Now wind power is four times to five times more expensive than hydro and it's about four times more expensive than a coal fired power station. What are your solutions if we do lose these major industries, it will impact heavily on the country's wealth as a whole.

A:	Russel: Firstly I'd dispute the figures around wind, wind actually is competitive that’s why there's lots and lots of wind farms being put up across the country. Secondly the Greens haven’t had that much influence over energy policy, not as much as we'd like actually I think that we could have a lot of influence over energy policy. Thirdly we need more distributed generation, we have been trying to get a solar hot water scheme going which is about distributed energy generation so that people don’t need as much electricity for their hot water. All of those things together which is about energy efficiency, it's about putting in renewable sources will in the long term make sure that we have affordable electricity without trashing the planet.

A:	Dave: Yes New Zealanders, industry, domestically, residentially we're notoriously inefficient users of energy, we've had a cheap supply of electricity for a very long time and it's time we woke up to the fact that the major gains in terms of reducing that is simply conservation. We don’t have to be cold or not have hot water, there's an abundant array of modern technologies that are available to us if we can gain significant improvements in our energy efficiency.

A:	Mike: Look our power prices are like power prices all over the world, they're going to go on climbing, there are shortages of power and the other panellists are right, we actually need to go into the conservation issue very seriously and you talk about industry actually ordinary householders are in a position to do a great deal with sympathetic policies that enable them to retrofit their houses with the insulation, putting in the solar water heaters, doing all those commonsense huge number of issues we could handle at a much lesser cost than building extra generation in fact.

A:	Nandor: Oh look I think it's mostly it's been said it's demand reduction first of all, it's about making sure that any new generation is from genuinely renewable supplies and one thing is you’ve got to get the incentives right so that for example in the domestic level for your householder electricity pricing should be structured so that there's a basic cheap amount which meets your basic needs and then wasteful use of electricity is more expensive, so that there's actually an incentive to conserve.

LISA	To the phone again, we have another question, this is from Jimmy.

Q:	Jimmy: I've got a question for Russel Norman. Is socialism more important than your environmentalism?

A:	Russel: Thanks Jimmy, for me social justice and environmental sustainability are innately linked, there will be no solution to the issue around climate change unless there are some social justice solutions around technology transfer to developing countries, those countries are currently planning to build lots and lots of giant coal fired power stations, we need to transfer technology so that they can have renewable sources of energy and that’s a basic issue of social justice and development and that is integral to solving an issue like climate change. The two issues environmental sustainability social justice they go hand in hand.

LISA	Mike do you agree with that?

	Mike: Absolutely decent public transport, good housing, decent healthcare, great education are all social justice issues, a strong local economy in my opinion is the biggest one where you actually source your needs from close to home, you make sure you keep New Zealanders in work making the things that New Zealanders need. There are a whole bunch of things that we can do to make life better for ordinary people apart from just increasing their incomes.

LISA	Nandor though has your brand been watered down, the eco the Green brand do you think by concentration on social justice issues?

	Nandor: Look social justice is core principle of the Greens along with ecological wisdom, non violence and appropriate decision making, but I think what we haven’t always done well is make it clear, when supporting social justice how it's integrated with those other principles, because we understand that all things are connected, that’s the essence of ecological wisdom actually that everything is interrelated but we haven’t always communicated that clearly enough, and I think what we have to make sure is that our social justice solutions have an ecological payoff as well, so like when Mike was talking about public transport that’s about making affordable transportation available to people, that also has an ecological payoff in terms of reducing our dependence on fossil fuels climate change etc.

LISA	Audience show of hands then, is the environment still the party's number one platform compared to social issues, hands up if you think environment is the number one platform. Balance they say. Let's go back to the audience for a question from Suzy.

Q:	Suzy: My question's about transport, road transport of freight per ton is the most costly and the most polluting compared to train or water and I think this country's been screwed economically by the roading transport lobby and I'd like to know what the candidates would do if they were in a position of influence to reduce that corrupting influence of the road transport lobby.

A:	Dave: You're dead right, the Greens have advocated for a long time that long haul freight is best located on rail because it's simply good sound economics. The point you make about the roading lobby, I'd resist the language of corrupt roading lobby, they're a very articulate and very effective roading lobby, what we need to put us is an effective counter lobby. The success of the roading lobby and seeing more roads built and more road transport is because they’ve been determined, that’s an outcome they’ve pursued. We need to be equally determined and equally articulate in putting up the more intelligent and ultimately more sustainable alternatives which are largely around rail in that instance at least.

A:	Nandor: But the problem is that when they privatised the rail lines that there was actually a disinvestment into the infrastructure and the government having bought back the rail lines hopefully we're gonna start to see some actual investment into the industry. I did a work experience with Carter Holt Harvey and they said they would much rather be taking their logs on rail than by trucks but the service that they were getting was appalling.

A:	Dave: All of the public investment in rail that was made over decades was pumped out of New Zealand to overseas owners in the course of about ten years and basically they walked away and left us with a very degraded residue of that, I mean the government has now taken that on board and brought back what is left and that’s something, we need some major investment some major progress in that.

A:	Mike: Well let's go from the other end and look at demand management, when you're shipping milk products from all over the country to places that have perfectly good dairy farms in their own communities, when you are shipping food from the other side of the planet to a food producing nation, where you are shipping products to people who already have those products you’ve got to actually say do you need as much transport as you’ve got, and my answer is a resounding no and in fact it would be a great deal cheaper for New Zealanders if we were producing a great deal more of the stuff that we use in our own community and shipping it for much shorter distances.

A:	Russel: I mean I think that one of the key issues is that we've gotta translate majority public support because particularly in Auckland there is tremendous support for public transport and more public transport, we've gotta translate into political effectiveness and that’s part of our role as the Green Party is to reach out and help mobilise that public support like we did over GE.

LISA	One more question for the floor – Paul has a question about tax.

Q:	Paul: A question about tax, not that I know of, I've got a question for Mike Ward though. Mike traditionally this country practically invented the welfare state and it still really values it by and large but last election – and you're right I have got a question about tax – tax cuts came out of nowhere to trump education and health as the dominating issue, what do you make of that, does that signal a problem for the Greens or an opportunity?

A:	Mike: Well you know a lot of people voted for it but a lot of people didn’t and I think the lot of people that didn’t are the ones that are more likely to vote for us, and I think the others are just misguided, I mean if you say it loud enough and often enough you know that tax cuts that tax is hurting that you know how to spend your money better than the government does and so forth people will begin to believe it. The truth is that a progressive tax system makes commonsense you know, having to pay for our own education isn't the smartest thing you can do, having decent healthcare that is there whether you can afford to pay for it or not I think most Kiwis actually believe in that and we have to stick to our guns. This is not to say that you know that we support high taxes, I think we could actually do everything a whole lot cheaper and we probably could actually have tax cuts if we were persuading people to keep themselves healthy rather than saying hey you need healthcare, get out and get some exercise, eat well, get rid of some of your work so you're not quite so stressed out. There are a whole bunch of things that we can do that cost less money but progressive taxes make good sense.

A:	Nandor: Well I think some people see taxation is about our reciprocal obligations to each other and I think there's something in that. Some people see it as an imposition from the government taking their hard earned cash and there's something in that. What the Greens bring that’s unique to this debate I think is the idea of tax shifting that rather than taxing goods we tax bads, so what we're saying is the first five thousand dollars of everyone's income should be tax free, everyone gets a tax break but it disproportionately disadvantages the poor rather than most of the tax cuts that have been discussed which is about advantaging the rich, be we make it fiscally neutral by putting tax on resource use and pollution and that’s so it's a way that we change the incentives in the economic system at the same time as putting more money in people's hands.

A:	Dave: It needs to be recalled that the Greens went into the last election campaign suggesting the first five thousand dollars of everybody's income should be tax free so this is not new talking tax cuts, that first five thousand would give the maximum benefit to the least well off and we think that’s much more equitable than putting tax breaks to the highest income bracket.

A:	Russel: That’s right and tax shift is all about making sure that scarce resources are used properly, I mean if economics is about the allocation of scarce resources for alternate ends then it's like no other party understands economic because they think that the environment is not a scarce resource, in fact it is a scarce resource and that’s why the Greens have this sound economic policy because we say well you know let's look at how scarce resources get used so that we can all survive.

LISA	We've got Deanna on the line from Auckland, who is your question for?

Q:	Deanna: It's for Nandor Lisa. Nandor it's quite cute that you're typifying or depicting the lack of palatability that you have to the wider electorate on the grounds of the religious intolerance. My proposition to you is that there are a lot of people out there who have a lot of sympathy for some of the things that the Greens are actually trying to get across and my belief is that people – you don’t have credibility mainly because of some of the ridiculous pronouncements you made on things like not riding helmets.

LISA	What's your question Deanna?

	Deanna: Is it religious intolerance or is it really a wider credibility issue for Nandor and is that going to impact on the Green's ability to get their message across?

A:	Nandor: Thanks for that question. First of all I've never made a pronouncement on riding without a helmet, the reality is I have an exemption personally because I can't wear one, because I do have dreadlocks, but I think that the issue is around how people understand what we're saying and how we're able to clearly communicate our message, and I think that there are obstacles in the way that we communicate at the moment and I think that we all have to collectively think very carefully about how do we create a clear focused message so that when people hear the Greens or they think about the Greens they understand we're about future proofing New Zealand, we're about making sure that we live sustainably by building a sustainable economy by becoming energy independent and by building strong and inclusive communities.

LISA	Let's go to a question from the audience here in the studio, we've got Neil what's your question?

Q:	Neil: My question is directed at Dave Clendon. With the local body elections being held next year and you’ve advocated Green involvement, do party politics play a part in local elections Dave?

A:	Dave: I believe they can and they have and they should in that order I think, there's some history of party involvement typically in Wellington and Christchurch, I think the Greens are possibly unique and we have a real opportunity here to take our message to the local government level as well and people won't see that as opportunistic, it won't be seen as trying to boost our parliamentary presence through the back door, because most of the key issues and the duties of local government are around water and waste and urban planning and transport and community wellbeing which are all core Green values. I think a Green ticket would also give some people something to identify with. The turnout at local government elections typically is in the low 40% on a good day, largely because people see a string of names that actually don’t have any connectivity any meaning to them, to see a Green ticket a Green platform people will understand then what those candidates are on about and will be able to vote for them quite confidently, so I think both two things, I mean there's some self interest clearly, we want more Greens in positions to make good decisions in terms of local government and there's also an opportunity for more people to participate, so it's a win win situation.

A:	Mike: Yeah I think it's horses for courses, some communities have a history of political parties involved in their elections, great for them, for those that don’t you play it by ear and I've had four terms as a city councillor and I've never stood on a ticket, there's no secret about my politics and there's certainly room for good political philosophy in politics and I think we need to wear our hearts on our sleeves and let people know what our beliefs are and what we hold out for the communities and stand on those beliefs, whether you stand on a Green ticket as I say it depends on the community you come from.

LISA	To the phone lines, let's take a question from Steve he's in Auckland.

Q:	Steve: Good morning Lisa, a question for all four gentlemen, it's the year of the Veteran currently, if you gentlemen were in a position over the next three years would you be willing to say goodbye to a free trade agreement with the United States, limited trade with the UK in return for settling with our nuclear test veterans and agent orange sufferers?

A:	Let's kick in with the fair trade, we need to take our commitments to the environments and social justice in the rest of the world seriously and where those commitments are not being met in other countries we don’t trade with them, on the other hand where there is a definite need and people have products that we have a need for and would enhance our economy and our communities then we trade with those countries, but fair trade's what it's about, free trade, no it's a nonsense.

A:	Russel: If I understand Steve's question properly he's talking about veterans who've been exposed to nuclear radiation is that right Steve – agent orange right. Obviously the Greens have been involved in the select committee inquiry and we supported the vets in that capacity, we've had a lot to do with supporting the veterans in their struggle over a long time and we continue to do that. On trade obviously you put it as we'd be making a great sacrifice to get out of such a free trade agreement but of course from the Green Party point of view because we're into fair trade rather than free trade it's not such a great trade off for us, so yes it's easy for us to continue to support the vets in their struggle and we'll continue to do that because it's just – because we're not totally into free trade like other parties are.

A:	Nandor: Can I just add something and I won't repeat the issues around trade because I think it's been well covered by the previous two speakers, but the issues around veterans that the Greens have played a leading role in trying to address some of those concerns and there's other people like the sawmill workers who also suffer hugely from dioxin poisoning which are being ignored by the government and I think it's an absolute scandal that we don’t take these issues seriously as a country.

A:	Yeah it's been said effectively, the notion of free trade deal with the United States, the United States government in a good year gives about 23 billion dollars direct subsidy to their agricultural sector and our farmers are meant to compete against that, free trade it is not so why should we want a apart of it.

LISA	We're working within an MMP system so let's find out who you think you could work with in a coalition arrangement. Nandor let's start with you you reckon the Greens are Labour's poodle, how do you get off the leash?

	Nandor: Well I think what we're actually likely to see is the difference between Labour and National become increasingly difficult to see and I think there's a fair distinction under the Brash leadership but when Brash is deposed as will happen sooner or later I think we'll see National start to change its flavour, and so the Greens I think have to posit ourselves really in opposition to the two of them because we are about putting sustainability at the forefront of the political debate and neither of those two parties is going to do that. The other thing I'd say is I think there's real potential for us to start working more cooperatively with other small parties and I've already started to do that in parliament facilitating cross party agreements and the like, because we have to understand that there are issues where a number of small parties do agree and if we can collectively work and strategically work together we can set the agenda and we can challenge the power of the duopoly.

LISA	Straight to the phone with a question from Dean from Taumarunui.

Q:	My question's pretty much for the whole panel, good morning everyone. It's a question about hemp, I was wondering how much money are you going to put towards it and how much research for the biofuels, clean water and pretty much the whole question of hemp and how much are we gonna hear about it in the next few years?

A:	Russel: One of the key issues for us is finding alternatives to fossil fuels, biodiesel and biofuels are key to that, we don’t have a specific amount of money to put into it because we're not currently part of the government, however were we part of the government we would be investing in research around those areas because we think it's really important.

LISA	Question from the floor now from Bill.

Q:	Hi I'm Bill Leonard, Nandor haven’t you actually quite generously said that the co-leader does not necessarily have to be an MP?

LISA	So does the co-leader have to be an MP or not?

A:	Nandor: Well look our constitution is really clear that you don’t have to be an MP to be the co-leader and I think that’s right, I think the party has to have the least restrictions about who can stand so the party can make the choice. What I have said though is I think it's difficult to exercise that role when you're not an MP because a lot of it's about leadership in caucus and leadership in the parliamentary arena and I think it's very difficult to do that if you're outside of parliament.

LISA	Let's go to the phones, a question from Martin from Auckland.

Q:	Martin: Kia ora Lisa, kia ora panel, it's good to see such a good public debate on television my congratulations to you all. My question to the panel, do you think it's true that Nandor carried baggage into this co-leadership election because to my thinking a Green voter isn't going to be so shallow as to judge Nandor by his dress and if someone is going to be that judgemental they're never going to vote Green anyway.

A:	Nandor: Oh I absolutely concur. Yeah I totally agree it's about diversity and tolerance that’s what we prize as a party and I think that’s what most New Zealanders prize actually.

LISA	Now Nandor's made his thoughts clear on an MP being the co-leader, gentlemen who are not MPs what do you think, have you got the policy platform and the recognition to do a job that would equal what Nandor could do?

A:	Mike: It's really important you know that the leadership in parliament and there is of course – we have a woman co-leader in parliament right now and it would be desirable to have a male co-leader in parliament if that was on, however there's leadership needed out in the party as a whole and somebody said before you know perhaps we're too dependent on our MPs, I think we need good campaigning out in the communities, campaigning that resonates with our communities that doesn’t focus on the things that are going wrong but rather focuses on the kind of future that the Green's hold out for their community so I think we need leadership out in the community and I think that somebody outside parliament is possibly better placed to give that kind of leadership.

LISA	We have a caller on the line.

Q:	Will: My name's Will I'm just asking if a non MP became co-leader who would pay their salary and would the Greens get any more funding from ministerial services or parliamentary services?

A:	Russel: The answer's no we wouldn’t get any more funding the Green Party would pay the salary. The advantage just to respond to having an MP outside parliament is that the Green Party is in some ways the party of the challengers, we are challenging the establishment in lots and lots of ways and so what we need to do is build grassroots campaigning and that’s how we're going to establish the powers that be to make the kinds of changes that we need to make and that’s the advantage of having a co-leader outside parliament is that they can build those kind of grassroots campaigns.

LISA	We'll just ask the audience on this. Audience do you think the leader has to be an MP, does the leader have to be an MP? - Well the race is open clearly. Paul we have Paul in the audience here, what's your question Paul and who's it for?

Q:	Paul: Yeah it's kind of a general question but I'd like to address it to David Clendon foremost because I kind of don’t have a feel for you whereas I do on the others. It's around leadership, to me leadership is summed up by two words, forward together. I want to know when push comes to shove if it comes down to going forward but losing some followers or keeping the party together at the risk of making slow progress what's your natural tendency?

LISA	So a question about diplomacy.

A:	Dave: I'm not sure that those two are mutually exclusive, I think that if you're heading in a direction where the party doesn’t want to go then clearly the leadership needs to readjust their sights perhaps. I guess my leadership style is to marry together people with skills and interests in a particular area and help them build their capacity and give them the motivation and the confidence to go after that because then they’ll be personally deeply interested in getting to that solution. There is a fine line between getting too far ahead of the party and sort of waiting for the party to tell the leadership what they ought to be doing and for me that’s about dialogue, it's about putting ideas up, be willing to have a few of your ideas battered down but getting the consensus, but getting the consensus, getting the shared vision, the common purpose and go hard for that, it's about energy and commitment and knowing. I've got a long experience in the party I know where we've come from, I think I'm getting a really clear picture of where we are now and this process has helped to focus that, and all of that leads me to think that I know where we need to be from here on in to build on what we've done so far.

	Russel: It's kind of ironical that that slogan if I recall was the slogan from Labour's election campaign wasn’t it, forward together, which is kind of like if you're a Labour back bench MP then it probably doesn’t feel like that very often but in the Green Party we believe in sticking together so leadership's about pushing the boundaries and creating some direction but also making sure that you build a consensus around it.

LISA	Let's go to the phone lines, we have a question from a caller about cannabis what's your question please?

Q:	Wayne: Well from what I understand we've been through the health select committees and justice select committees you know what's the stance with all the members there?

LISA	Gentlemen individually what's your stance on decriminalisation of cannabis?

A:	Dave: I think were the only party with an intelligent drugs policy it's about harmonisation, it's about taking away the criminal aspect of what is acknowledged as being for some people a social and a health problem, we're the only people confronting that reality. If I thought prohibition was working then I'd probably support it, but it patently is not and it will not. We need alternatives and we can offer that.

A:	Mike: The policy's very clear but I wish you know you didn’t attach so much importance to it, there are a great many other policies that are vastly more important to the wellbeing of our communities on the planet right now, our policy is clear, I believe in it but it's not the most important by a long long way.

LISA	Alright let's find out who you gentlemen would work with post election. Do you rule National out?

	Russel: Two words describe my approach to working with other parties, independent and principled. If National embraced recognising climate change and wanted to do something about it then obviously we would talk to them, I mean the problem for us is that on the most important issue facing humanity which is climate change you’ve got Labour who recognise it but actually have a policy of building one and a half billion dollars worth of roads so they're like in favour of accelerating climate change and then you’ve got National who don’t even recognise that it's happening.

	Mike: Russel you said if they support it we'll go with them, we have to work with them because there'll be elements of their policy that will be sympathetic but they cannot ignore it, whether they like it or not if they are government we will work with them in any way we can to make sure they embrace climate change and do something about it.

LISA	So if there are core issues that you can work on you will work with whoever's in government?

	Mike: Absolutely have to that’s what you're there for.

	Nandor: It's gotta be on the policy, forget about what the name of the party is it's about can we find a policy agreement if we can then let's sit down and talk.

LISA	Which obviously brings us to that question that you're posing Nandor is the Greens a left party, where are they on the spectrum?

	Nandor: Well my view is that that polarity just does not describe us. We have a strong left strand in the party we have a conservative strand in the party, we have a liberal and a libertarian, we are made up of all these different strands and what we symbolise is a synergy and a synthesis of all those traditions and putting it in a new framework which is putting the ecology at the centre of that debate and so you know that paradigm just doesn’t describe us, we are Green wing.

	Dave: The old left right continuum that is outdated and it doesn’t – it's not flexible enough to embrace the Greens, it was very much about the distribution of wealth. Uniquely the Greens understand that wealth is generated from the natural world where you work with what is there and we had to put the wellbeing of the ecosystems into that equation. Neither left nor right has ever done that and so we just – we need to redefine politics and that’s what we're doing, we're asserting the Green wing notion, never mind left or right wing, we're Green wing and we're out there on our own.

	Russel: And we'll protect public health and public education but we also recognise the finite nature of the planet that we live on, in face we're the only party that recognises that the planet is finite.

LISA	Alright well let's put the morning to the test then, in terms of who you might like to vote for can you raise your hands as we go round the candidates?

	Our elections don’t work that way.

LISA	Any standout candidates this morning, anyone, would you might vote for Mike? Oh we'll the audience they're not gonna give it away are they. Well very quickly gentlemen you’ve got a couple of seconds each let's give us your closing statement in a few words.

	Mike: We need to put the sizzle on our policies I mean I think they're exciting we need to show it, just upfront about the two jobs thing actually there's the artist job and the athlete job and none of them are going.

LISA	Thank you very much for joining us this morning panel and very much to the audience for being here.

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